H2 SCIENCE

my thoughts on the Stan Meyer "WFC"

2009-02-17T14:03:00.000-08:00

From what I've read, Stan Meyer's (theoretical) electrolysis process involves several mechanisms ("theoretical" because I've never seen a working S. Meyer WFC replication despite the many attempts).

The first one is "voltage potential taking over". Stan Meyer talks a lot about this in his videos/papers, by
"voltage potential taking over" I think he means: voltage performing the work, instead of a current (free energy basically).

Voltage potential is the force (electrostatic) which moves electrons through a circuit performing work.

According to my understanding: The positive charge is created by "holes" (or positive ions) on the + side of the battery. These holes are waiting to be filled by electrons and they create a "sucking" force which pulls negative elementary charge or electrons through circuits, spark gaps, electrolytes, etc.

What if you could some how have this "sucking" action without current/ charge flow from the (-) side of a battery? For example, suck the "holes" H+ ions and/or valance electrons out of H2O molecules. Or somehow "inject" electrons into a potential or electric field, and make the injected electrons perform work?

Here's how it might apply to electrolysis:

Cathode (reduction): 2H₂O(l) + 2e⁻ → H₂(g) + 2OH⁻(aq)

Anode (oxidation): 4OH⁻(aq) → O₂(g) + 2H₂O(l) + 4e⁻

These reactions occur at a ratio of 2:1 .. reduction to oxidation, respectively.

This is how it happens:

At the cathode two electrons "hit" two H2O molecules with a minimum energy (or velocity) of 1.23 eV (Volts), this causes the two H atoms to break free and combine to form H2, and 2OH(-) is left.. The 2OH(-) migrate (or propagate) across the cell toward the (+) side where the "sucking" action takes place.

After the reduction reaction occurs twice, you have 4OH(-) at the anode. The (+) charge in the battery continues to "suck" 4 negative charge/electrons (from within 4OH-) towards it to replace charge/electrons lost on the (-) side. (Note: These bound electrons have ~0 kinetic energy, unlike when they created H2). When the 4e- are sucked into the electrodes towards the battery O₂(g) + 2H₂O(l) are formed.

The second 'important' part of the Stan Meyer's "WFC" .. is what he called the "Electron Extraction Circuit" or EEC. From what I've read this is a key component to the functionality of the whole system. In a nutshell he talks about LED light injection and claims the wavelength required by his process is right around 300 nm (nanometers), he then talks about some sort of a "amp" consuming device attached to the circuit, and what he thinks is happening at the atomic level.. His descriptions of what happen at the atomic level probably got him laughed at a few times by scientists, and I doubt he actually knew what was occurring (his brother Steve Meyer admits this in an interview I heard on blogtalkradio) ..

So anyway, how could this photon injection actually contribute to his process? I thought about this, and this is my best guess:

There is an phenomenon in physics known as the "photoelectric effect", where electrons are emitted from matter (usually a metal) after the absorption of electromagnetic radiation (photons/light) of a specific (or minimum) energy, called the "work function". More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_function .. The work function of Chromium (20 percent of stainless steel) is 4.5 eV which translates to a photon with a wavelength of 275 nm (which is in the ultraviolet range).

I doubt either of these ideas could work to extract extra energy out of a cell, but it would be interesting to do some experiments with UV LEDs. And try to eject electrons out of your (-) electrode and see if they'll perform work (electrolysis). Steve Meyer also mentioned eventual electrode consumption/deteriation through the Stan Meyer process.

BBC leakage

2009-01-25T12:15:00.000-08:00

Here is an image of the formation of Hydrogen and Oxygen on the outside of the positive and negative terminal plates.

This might be normal operation of a series neutral plate cell, but it might not. HHO didn't form on the outside of the plates with a weak NaOH electrolyte solution, or at least I didn't notice any. However, once a higher concentration of NaOH was added the outside HHO formation started again...

The cell is full of leaks and will have to be redone.

Efficiency and temperature Equations

2008-11-30T11:49:00.000-08:00

Gibbs Energy of Formation (with variable temperature) = ΔG = (ΔH * (298.15/T1)) - T1ΔS

T1 = Temperature of cell Electrolyte (user input)
T2 = Temperature of HHO Gas coming out of cell (user input)
ΔH = -285.85 ( kJ / mole h2o liquid) at 25C (298.15 K) (constant)
ΔS = -163.34 (J / K) = (Entropy of Water) - (Entropy of HHO Gas) (constant)

For example, at a temperature electrolyte/cell temperature of 38C (311.15 K) the Gibbs Energy of formation might change to: ΔG = (-285850 J * (298.15 K / 311.15 K)) - (311.15 K * -163.34 J/K)
ΔG = -223.05 kJ / mol

So to disassociate 1 mole of H2O with a cell temperature of 38C, 223.05 kJ of electricity is needed.

This will produce 1 mole of H2 gas, and .5 mole of O2 gas:

22.4 L * (1.5 moles) = 33.6 L (@ 298 Kelvin)

If the gas temperature is 308.5 Kelvin (T2) the volume will be 33.6 * (T2 / 298.15) = 34.78 Liters

Convert to Watts/LPM:
223.05 kJ / 3600 s = 61.95 Watts

Convert 34.78 L/hr to LPM: 34.78 / 60 = .58 LPM

Convert to W/LPM: (1/.58) * 61.95 W = 106.81 W/LPM

Convert to MMW: 1000/106.8 W = 9.39 MMW

Calculate Voltage required from Faraday (below):

107.205 Amp/Hr will create 73.338 L (at 25C), and 75.92 L at * 38 C (73.338 * 308.5/298)

(61.95 W * 2) = 107.205 A * V
Volts = 1.15 V

Faraday Efficiency

2008-11-26T07:18:00.000-08:00

Faraday electrolysis efficiency uses quantities of electrons (coulombs) and gas volume to determine the efficiency of an electrolytic cell.

According to Faraday law, 4 moles of electrons moving through a cell will create 2 moles of H2 gas, and 1 mole of O2 gas, at 100 percent Faraday Efficiency.

How to calculate 100 percent Faraday Efficiency:

First convert 4 moles of electrons into amps. (4 moles) * (avagadro's number) =
4 * 6.0221417e23 = 2.408856716e24 (electrons)

Then divide the total electrons by 1 Coulomb (quantity of electrons)

2.4088567e24 (electrons) / 6.24150947e18 (1 Coulomb) = 385941 Coulombs

Now calculate the Amp Hours:

Since (1 Amp) = (1 Coulomb * 1 Second)

(385941 C) / (3600 Seconds) = 107.205 Amp Hours (Ah)

Now figure out how much gas is in 2 moles of H2, and 1 mole of O2.
According to the ideal gas law, one mole of gas has a volume of 24.446 Liters at 25 C, 1 Atm. So:

(3 moles) * 24.446 L/mol = 73.338 Liters of HHO gas

So this is as exciting as Faraday Efficiency gets, it deals with Amps and Moles only (not energy or voltage).

So 107.205 Amps over one hour will generate 73.338 Liters of H2 O2 gas at 100 percent efficiency. That's it, 100 percent Faraday Efficiency.

It gets interesting when you throw the Gibbs Energy of Formation of water into the equation.
At 25 C the Gibbs Free Energy (see post below) 237.18 Joules are required to convert 1 mole of H2O into 1 mole of H2 gas and a 1/2 mole of O2 gas.

So from the above calculations we know: 107.205 Amps continuous for 1 Hour will create 3 moles of H2/O2 gas, which has a volume of 73.338 Liters.

If we multiply the Gibbs Free Energy (energy used to create 1.5 moles of gas) by 2, we should get the actual energy required to make the above quantity, 3 moles of gas.

237.18 kJ * 2 = 474.36 kJ

Convert 474.36 kJ to Watts:

474360 Joules / 3600 seconds = 131.7666 Watts

Now put everything together (amps + voltage)

Since: Watts = Amps * Volts

131.7666 Watts = 107.204 Amp * Volts

Volts = 1.229 V Which is considered the minimum voltage for electrolysis to occur at 25C, 101.325 kPa. Which is also 100 percent Faraday, and "Gibbs" Efficiency.

Calculate W/LPM and MMW:

73.338 L/Hr / 60 Minutes = 1.223 LPM
Requires 131.76 Watts.

1 LPM / 1.223 LPM = .81766
.81766 * 131.76 Watts = 107.73

107.73 Watts will generate 1 LPM at 100 percent efficiency, or 9.282 MMW, at 25C 101.325 kPa.

How to calculate Efficiency with Gibbs Energy of Formation

2008-11-25T15:51:00.000-08:00

The actual energy efficiency formula considering the Gibbs energy of formationshould look like this:

To convert one mole of H2O into 1 mol H2 gas, and .5 mol O2 gas, according to the Gibbs Free energy, requires 237.18 kJ at 25 C, at 1 atm. Total volume of H2 O2 gas is 36.669 Liters at 25 C (ideal gas law: 1.5 moles * 24.446 Liters)

Convert 237.18 kJ to Watts ... 237180 Joules / 3600 seconds in hour = 65.883 Watts

33.6 Liters of HHO gas over 60 minutes = 33.6/60 = .56 LPM (Liters per minute)

So 100 percent efficiency at 25 C and 101.325 kPa .. at 65.883 Watts you'll be making .61115 LPM

Or at 1 LPM you'll be consuming 107.801 Watts, and have a MMW of 9.27 (at 25C water and gas temp, and 101.325 kPa pressure). Temperature of gas and water, and pressure, will change these numbers.

Efficiency - Gibbs Energy of Formation

2008-11-24T14:26:00.000-08:00

The Gibbs Free Energy of a system is the thermodynamic potential that measures the "useful" work obtainable from a thermodynamic system. It can be thought of as the maximum amount of non-expansion work that can be extracted from a closed system. This maximum can be obtained from a completely reversible process. The reverse is known as Gibbs Energy of Formation.

The thermodynamic equation is:

G = U + pV - TS

or

G = H - TS or ΔG = ΔH - TΔS

G = Gibbs Energy
U= Internal Energy = (The total kinetic and potential energy associated with the vibrational and electric energy of atoms within molecules. Or the energy in all chemical bonds and kinetic energy of free conduction band electrons.) Measured in Joules.
P = Pressure. Measured in Pascals
V = Volume. Measured in cubic meters.
T = Temperature. Measured in Kelvins.
S = Entropy = Measured in (Joules/Kelvins) = The total energy of a system that is unable to perform work. Function of a quantity of heat which shows the possibility of conversion of heat to work.
H = Enthalpy = A thermodynamic potential which can be used to calculate the "useful" work obtainable from a closed system, under constant temperature and pressure.
Δ = change in x value

To calculate the internal energy U, you first need to calculate the work (energy) required to decompress one mole of H2O liquid into H2 + (.5)O2 gas.

Note: 1 mole of water creates 1 mole of hydrogen gas and .5 mole of oxygen gas, total (1.5 mol)
Also, one mole of an ideal gas creates a volume of 22.4 L, so (1.5 mol)*(22.4 L) = 33.6 L (at 0C, 1 atmosphere), one mole of water turned into HHO gas has a volume of 33.6 L.

W = work to decompress one mole H2O
T= 298.15 K
P = standard atmospheric pressure = 101.325 kPa * 1000 = 101325 Pa
V (in cubic meters) = (1.5 moles) * (22.4 L) * 10e-3 = .336 m³

W = PΔV = (101325 Pa) * (.336 m³/mol) * (298.15 K / 273 K) = 3715 Joules = 3.72 kJ

Using the enthalpy equation H = U+PV you can get:

ΔU = ΔH - PΔV

ΔH = 285.83 kJ (this value can be looked up here: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/data.html)

So,
ΔU = 285.83 kJ - 3.72 kJ = 282.1 kJ

And TΔS needs to be calculated:

ΔQ = TΔS = Heat Generated by the system to maintain a constant temperature.
Note: Electrolysis is an endothermic reaction which would otherwise decrease the temperature of a system.

ΔS = Entropy of a chemical reaction = (Entropy of 1 mole H2O liquid) - [ (Entropy of H2 gas) + (Entropy of .5 * O2 gas)]

Values can be looked up:

Quantity	H₂O	H₂	0.5 O₂	Change
Enthalpy	-285.83 kJ	0	0	ΔH = 285.83 kJ
Entropy	69.91 J/K	130.68 J/K	0.5 x 205.14 J/K	TΔS = 48.7 kJ

ΔS = 69.91 J/K mol - [ 130.68 J/K mol + (.5 * 205.4 J/K mol) ] = -163.34 J/K mol

Now figure out what TΔS is.

T = 298K

298 K * -163.34 J/K = 48675 J = 48.7 kJ

So now we can use the first equation to figure out the Gibbs Free Energy:
ΔG = ΔH - TΔS

ΔG = 285.83 kJ - 48.7 kJ = 237.1 kJ

Efficiency - Heat generation and loss

2008-11-03T09:29:00.000-08:00

While an electrolysis cell is producing H2 O2 gas, most of the time it is producing heat as well. You might be thinking the amount of heat lost in a cell isn't a useful measurement. But it can be useful for the following reasons.

Thermal measurements can be used to determine your cells overall efficiency. For example:

(H2 Gas Energy in Joules) + (Heat Generated in Joules)
/ (Electrical Energy in Joules)

Should give you an accurate measurement of your cells efficiency.

(Ambient air temperature) / (Cell temperature) may work as well to determine efficiency.

If you are approaching 100 percent efficiency, the heat output can be used to determine if any excess heat/energy is being generated (more energy out than into cell), this is a big consideration in cold fusion experiments.

Heat loss can occur the following ways:

1. Through the outside cell material (HDPE, gaskets, etc), or electrolyte exposed to ambient air.
2. From generated gas
3. Through a water circulation system (Bubblers, Pumps/Tanks, etc)

To calculate heat loss through cell construction material (or electrolyte exposed to air), several variables are required (once the cell warmed up).

- Air temperature
- Surface temperature of external cell material
- Surface area of each external cell material exposed to ambient air (plates, acrylic, electrolyte, etc)
- The Time which you are measuring your cell's efficiency and gas output.
- Thermal conductivity of materials

Q = thermal energy transfered in in Joules
t = Time (seconds)
h = thermal conductivity of material (W/(m·K)
A = surface area inside cell of conducting material (meters^2)
T(0) = outside temperature of material (C)
T(env) = temperature of environment (air)

NOTE: The Thermal conductivity (h) of a material are measured in: W/(m·K)
The English version: Btu·ft/(h·ft²·°F) can be converted with the following:
1 Btu·ft/(h·ft²·°F) = 1.730735 W/(m·K).

A list of Thermal conductivity measurements can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities
(these measurements were taken around room temperature. Temperature isn't a huge factor here imo)
A few examples:

Stainless Steel: 16.3 (W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹)
Acrylic: 0.2 (W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹)
Air: 0.025 (W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹)
High-Density Polymer: .33 (W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹)
Low-density Polymer: .16 (W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹)
UHMW-PE: 5.053 (W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹)

For example:

You have a 12" x 6" x 7" UHMW-PE box cell. 2.5833 sq ft
The outside temperature of the box is 110F
The outside air temperature is 75F.
And you want to determine the heat energy loss of the cell (running at constant temp) over 60 seconds, do the following:

Feet to meters conversion => 1 foot = 0.3048 meter
2.5833 (sq ft) * .3048 = .78738 m^2

Fahrenheit to Celsius conversion => subtract 32, and divide by 1.8
Outside box temperature = (110F - 32) / 1.8 = 43.33 C
Outside air temperature = (75F - 32_ / 1.8 = 23.88 C

Heat Loss Equation:

(Q/t) = h * A * (T.cell - T.air)

--> (Q/60) = 5.053 * .7873 * (43.33 - 23.88)
--> Q/60 = 77.37
--> Q = 4642 Joules

So the cell material is losing 4642 Joules every 60 seconds in heat energy. Or 77.43 Watts

Electrolysis Efficiency - Factors

2008-11-01T13:40:00.000-07:00

1. Heat generated by cell, and heat loss in cell
2. Heat loss from gas generated
3. Pressure within electrolysis cell
4. Over-voltage from power source
5. Ohmic resistance of electrolyte between electrodes
6. Even spacing of electrodes
7. Current/Ion leakage between cells
8. Bubbles (gas) between electrodes
9. Ambient temperature

I'll be writing about, and researching, the above topics for my next posts.

Bohr Hydrogen Model

2008-10-30T06:36:00.000-07:00

Hydrogen Energy Levels (Bohr)

I consider this a 2 dimensional view of the H atom. This basically says an electron moving with 13.6eV of energy can push an electron out of a ground state hydrogen 'orbital' or energy level. The ground state binding energy of H is -13.6eV. More details here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virial_theorem

How fast does an electron travel at 13.6eV?
13.6 * 1eV = 2.178960082e-18 Joules
--> E = (1/2)*mass*velocity^2
--> 2.178960082e-18 = (1/2) * electronmass * v^2
--> 4.78399e12 = v^2
--> v = 2.1872365e6 m/s
OR fine structure constant (a) * speed of light (c)
---> a * c
--> .0072973 * 2.99792e8
--> 2.18769e6 m/s

How can 1.23 eV and 13.6 eV be determined/derived?
Experimentally and with math.

For some unknown reason alpha * c equates to the velocity a hydrogen atom electron in it's ground state (alpha is also known as a binding constant). I consider -13.6eV as the "electrostatic force" required to hold the electron in place, in a ground state. And 13.6eV is the electron kinetic energy required to overcome that force. More details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virial_theorem

eV = 1 electronvolt = 1.602e-19 J
Energy = (1/2) * electronmass * v^2
E = (1/2) * 9.10938e-31 (kg) * (a*c)^2
E = 2.17987e-18 Joules

2.17987e-18 J / 1 eV = 13.605 eV

If you want units to make sense do this: 1 V = (1 Joule) / (1 Coulomb)
e = elementary charge = 1.602e-19 Coulombs
Energy to break H2O bonds at 25C = 3.93846588e-19 J (explained below)

V = (3.938e-19 J) / (2 * e) (two elementary_charges (electrons) required to break H-O-H bonds)
V = 1.229 Volts

You can also confirm this experimentally with the H2O Gibbs Energy at 25C (237.18 kJ / mol), which is the energy that can be extracted from one mole of hydrogen gas, and the electrical energy required to break a mole of H2O bonds: H2O --> O(-) + 2H(+)

So take: 237.18 kJ / mol * 1000 = 237180 J / mol

Then, divide by avogadro's number (the number of entities per mole) 6.0221417e23

237180 (Joules/mol) / 6.0221417e23 (entities/mol) = 3.93846588e-19 Joules per Entity (per H2O molecule)

So now we have the energy required to break two bonds within the H2O molecule into 2H(+) and O(-) ..
Divide that by 2 bonds --> 1.9692e-19 (J / bond)
Determine volts per electrons --> 1.9692e-19 / ev = 1.229 eV (energy to break each bond)

Electrolysis at 25C, 1 atm.

Valance Electron wavelength
br = Bohr radius = 5.29177e-11 m
n = energy level of H in h2o

wavelength = 2*pi*n*br
--> wavelength = 2 * pi * 3.354 * 5.29e-11
--> wavelength = 1.115177e-9 (m^-1)

Velocity of Electron at 1.23 eV
--> 1.23 * eV = 1.97e-19 J
--> 1.97e-19 = (1/2) * electronmass * v^2
--> v = 657776 m/s

H2O Vibrations

2008-10-28T09:54:00.000-07:00

Animation of H2O molecule movement

I was curious how to determine the vibratory resonant frequency of a water molecule, so I came up with a few ideas:

I believe the velocity/energy of the covalent electron is directly responsible for the molecules frequency/vibrations. The faster the electron moves in response to heat/current, the more rapidly the molecule vibrates/rotates, in the above patterns. If the covalent electrons reach 13.6 eV (kinetic energy) the energized H(+) atom leaves the molecule, and if energy exceeds (13.6 eV) photons are released (excess energy) as heat. (from my understanding)

So, if you take 13.6 eV (total energy of bond required to release electron/proton at 25C) Then subtract 1.23 eV (energy of electron to break H2O bond) You get:

13.6 - 1.23 = 12.37 eV

12.37 eV * 1.602e-19 Joules (1 eV) = 1.9818e-18 Joules (kinetic energy of covalent electrons)

Using: Kinetic_Energy = (1/2) * mass * velocity^2
1.9818e-18 J = electron_rest_mass * v^2
v = 2.085e6 m/s (at 25C)

This is, I believe, is the velocity of the H2O vibrations. I don't know for sure because I don't have $25 to spend on an article. But I did find this for free:

**Main vibrations of liquid ordinary and heavy water**
Vibration(s) [942]	liquid H₂O (25°C)		liquid D₂O (25°C)
Vibration(s) [942]	v, cm^-1	E₀, M^-1 cm^-1	v, cm^-1	E₀, M^-1 cm^-1
v₂	1643.5	21.8	1209.4	17.4
combination of v₂+ libration	2127.5	3.50	1555.0	1.91
v₁, v₃ , and overtone of v₂	3404.0^e	99.9	2504.0	71.5

These are the wavelengths of H2O/D2O vibrations, and their vibrational patterns, which was all figured out using Raman spectroscopy. Or lasers (photons) that interact with the vibrational motion of an electron cloud/shell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raman_spectroscopy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance_Raman_spectroscopy (more interesting)

So, if the water molecule is vibrating at 2.085e6 m/s (at 25C), with the above wavelengths we can figure out the vibrational frequency with:

w = (v / f) or f = (v / w)

w=wavelength
v=velocity = 2.085e6 m/s (at 25C)
f=frequency

From above table H2O has the following vibrational wavelengths (in meters):

v2 = 16.435
v2 + liberation = 21.275
v1, v3, and v2 overtone = 34.04

The frequencies are:

If the velocity is 2.085e6:

v2: f = 2.085e6 / 16.435 = 126,952 hz
v2 + lib = 2.085e6 / 21.275 = 98,071 hz
v1, v3, and v2 overtone 2.085e6 / 34.04 = 61,294 hz

If velocity is actually "c" the speed of light, since photons/light are used to determine the wavelength.

v2: f = c / 16.435 = 18,241,098.75 hz
v2 + lib = c / 21.275 = 14,091,302.37 hz
v1, v3, and v2 overtone = c / 34.04 = 8,087,063.98 hz

These are all pretty low frequencies, and close to the BB pwm, and it's interesting they're almost harmonics of 30khz, and v2: 126,952 / 42800 hz = 2.966 is almost a harmonic.

Frequencies.
What kind of frequencies do water molecules have?

1.) Vibratory/rotational frequencies (above) is based on the moment of inertia of the water molecule, and the lightness of the hydrogen molecules (creating large amplitudes).

The moment of inertia or angular mass of a water molecule is a measure of an object's resistance to changes in its rotation rate (rotational analog of mass). There are several types of molecular rotations, which can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_spectroscopy
H2O has a "Asymmetric top" rotation.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/diph2o.html

Moment of inertia (axes through centers of mass) in water:

H₂O: 1.0220 x 10^-40 g cm² ^x; 2.9376 x 10^-40 g cm² ^y; 1.9187 x 10^-40 g cm² ^z [8]

2.) Photon emission at specific frequencies from electrons changing energy levels.

PWMs + Spikes

2008-10-24T17:12:00.000-07:00

These digital scope pictures are from a Bob Boyce PWM channel one (made by a user on the hydroxy forum)

Fast pulse!

Channel 1 is coil primary 10:1 500MHz probe, Channel 2 is coil secondary, cheap 1:1 probe

Faster HV Pulse!

Channel 1 is coil primary #1 10:1 500MHz probe, Channel 2 is coil primary #2 (undriven and unloaded), cheap 1:1 probe

Electrodynamic Response?

Same as earlier shot, but with area in question marked. A 10K resistor is across the secondary to damp oscillations.
By: software_lead

More on fast pulsing later.

UHMW-PE

2008-10-23T11:56:00.000-07:00

FAQ. Good information regarding fabrication, welding, etc.

http://www.garlandmfg.com/plastics/faq.html

Efficiency Experiment

2008-10-21T19:50:00.000-07:00

I just thought of a possible easier way to test energy efficiency experimentally:

Separate your H2 and O2 gas produced in your electrolysis cell. Then run the gas output into a "Hydrogen Fuel Cell" and measure the electricity generated vs electricity consumed. This would also be good for all the guys who claim their gas is more energetic, etc.

Sealed Cell (Dry Cell) Efficiency

2008-10-19T16:07:00.000-07:00

There are two ways to generate heat (lose efficiency) within a sealed dry cell (with neutral plates).

1. Over voltage - When you only need, ie, 1.23V to create hydroxy gas but use 4V to increase production, heat is generated instead of gas.

2. Current/Ion leakage - If you have holes in plates between cells, ions will rush through the hole to the higher potential plate, collide, and generate heat (and form H2O). This is my best guess:

If 9 Volts is applied to the +/- electrodes, there should be 3V across each cell. If there is a hole in the neutral plates ions will attempt to reach the next plate with the higher potential (6V), creating heat/H2O in the middle/edges.

100 Percent Efficiency

2008-10-17T16:51:00.000-07:00

3.95 kW will make 36.4 L/min of HHO gas (at 23 deg C)

3950 W / 36.4 L/min = 108.5 Watts L/min (23C)

or 9.21 MMW (at 23C)

Proton Exchange Membranes (PEM)

2008-10-17T09:17:00.000-07:00

PEMs basically stop larger ion "migration" across a cell, while allowing H+ (protons) and electrons to move in one direction. Neutral plates I believe might function in a similar manor.

PEMs consist of a solid fluoropolymer which has been chemically altered to contain 'sulphonic acid groups' SO3H, which easily release their hydrogen as positively-charged protons (H+).

Chemical equations:

SO3H + ----> SO3(-) + H(+)

And I'm guessing this occurs on the other side:
H3O(+) + SO3 ---> H2O + SO3H

What really happens?

1. An electron hits the S03H molecule in the PEM.

2. A very slight amount energy is used, then SO3H releases H(+) on the same side the electron hit. Then H(+) travels toward the negative electrode passing through OH- ions.

3. On the opposite side of the PEM, a H3O(+) ion (in water) gives up a proton (H+) to the membrane's SO3 molecule, and the electron travels toward the positive electrode.

Electric Charge .. Voltage .. What are they?

2008-10-15T13:34:00.000-07:00

A little off topic, but charge is fundamental thing which I feel is misunderstood and confusing. So I'm gunna rant about it a bit.

Here's a definition according to Wiki:

Electric charge is a fundamental conserved property of some subatomic particles, which determines their electromagnetic interaction. Electrically charged matter is influenced by, and produces, electromagnetic fields. The interaction between a moving charge and an electromagnetic field is the source of the electromagnetic force, which is one of the four fundamental forces.

One from http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elecur.html :

The unit of electric charge is the Coulomb (abbreviated C). Ordinary matter is made up of atoms which have positively charged nuclei and negatively charged electrons surrounding them. Charge is quantized as a multiple of the electron or proton charge:

The influence of charges is characterized in terms of the forces between them (Coulomb's law) and the electric field and voltage produced by them. One Coulomb of charge is the charge which would flow through a 120 watt lightbulb (120 volts AC) in one second. Two charges of one Coulomb each separated by a meter would repel each other with a force of about a million tons!

Here's my definition and/or question:

Why is a unit of elementary charge "e" not just simply considered the kinetic energy of an electron moving at a "base velocity" regulated by 'voltage potential'?

Could the polarity of a charge could be a property of spin, or something else? It seems like polarity should separate from 'charge'. Is a proton ever considered "charge" due to its energy like electrons?

An electron volt (eV) is a convenient energy unit used by atomic and nuclear physicists. 1 eV is the energy of 1 electron moving through an electric potential of 1 volt ..
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ev.html

Electrons don't really "move" in a conductor they just "rattle" around within it. There is an electron drift velocity which is the linear electron movement down a conductor which is very slow, about 4 cm per hour, or something like that.

e = electron/elementary charge = 1.602 x 10^-19 Coulombs (quantity)
V = volts = 1
1 eV = electron volt = 1.602 x 10^-19 Joules
electron mass = 9.1093e-31 Kg

So .. 1 volt = a potential gradient (force) which makes electrons move (rattle around) fast enough to have 1.602e-19 Joules of kinetic energy

If: Kinetic Energy (KE) = (1/2) electron_mass * velocity (v)^2

Then:

1.602e-19 J = (1/2) * 9.1093e-31 * v^2
--> 3.5176e11 = v^2
--> sqrt(3.5176e11) = sqrt(v^2)
--> v =593097 meters/second

Then 1 volt is the amount of electrostatic potential (force) required to move electrons at 593097 m/s through a conductor.

So what is voltage really? I've read it's a 'electrical potential gradient' .. a 'pressure' .. But I'm thinking it is a real force (a 'collective' weak interaction/force?) that is responsible for "sucking" electrons through a conductor through "holes" or positive charged ions on the positive side of a battery .. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole

How electrolysis works to make HHO gas

2008-10-13T09:45:00.000-07:00

Electrolysis + a little on efficiency

We know .. That in order for electrolysis to occur we need current (charge) and ions flowing through our water solution. But we also need to have interaction between moving electrons and water molecules. How do they interact?

When you add electrolyte to water not only does it increase the conductivity of the solution, but I'm thinking it also weakens the H-O-H covalent bonds, and adds electrostatic polarization to the H2O molecules. So now, the hydrogen within the H2O molecules absorb electrons (or charge) easier. This also makes me wonder if there is a direct relationship between the bond strength of the ionic compound (electrolyte) and the resistance (distance) between anodes/cathodes + performance.

Here are the chemical equations for electrolysis:

On the Anode (negative plate)
4H2O + 4e(-) ------------> 2H2(+) + 4OH(-) (reduction or gains electrons)

This doesn't show how 2OH(-) gets from the anode through the gap/solution to the cathode. I'm assuming it just gradually migrates across the gap. This article explains a little http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_/ai_89581012?tag=artBody;col1

The equation doesn't explain that H2(+) is "charged" up and has more energy than it did within the water molecule .. This is all probably basic stuff to most of you guys, but I like having more details.

On the Cathode (positive plate)
4OH(-) ----------> O2 + 2H2O + 4e(-) (oxidation or loses electrons)

Together: 2H2O ----------> 2H2 + O2

Here's a cool 3D animation of the reduction reaction http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1ZoPGu-C8)

Nice visual reference from a Fuel Cell tutorial ... for electrolysis the opposite is actually happening:

This is the best visual example I could find .. however it's for a fuel cell (ie NASA shuttle generators). But it's still easy to picture what will happen in reverse. One thing I'd like to add is the transfer or kinetic energy of the electrons. In this fuel cell example the "energy of the electrons" (charge) are coming from the recombination of the H2 and O atoms (which creates 237.18 kJ per mol of H2O formed, at room temp.) ..

Here's a reference http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html

With electrolysis (the reverse) two electrons bounce into the H2O molecules with the same energy as above (or 1.9692e-19 Joules per electron) , which splits the H2O in H-H-O gas .. Now this is an ideal situation using pure water, and would (in theory) create no extra heat within your electrolysis cell. All the energy would go to gas production. To figure out the voltage for this ideal condition, I'm thinking you would do something like this (NOT 100 percent sure, due to lack of info) ..

Since: Volts = Joules / Coulombs

V =
1.9692e-19 * 2 (optimal kinetic energy of two electrons about to split a water molecule)
/
2*e (the elementary charge constant = 1.60e-19 coulombs times 2 (electrons))

So ideally, in pure water Volts = 1.229 .. any higher than that you get heat.

Electrolyte in H2O

2008-10-09T11:27:00.000-07:00

What is an electrolyte?

It's a substance that contains free + or - charged ions which is added to solution making it more electrically conductive (electrolytic). There are two basic types of electrolytes:

Acids, which donate H+ ions to the water solution (base), and lower the pH. In water acids, increase the concentration of hydrogen ions H+, which are carried as H₃O+. Some examples are vinegar, sulfuric acid, and hydrochloric acid (HCl).

Bases, which are described as an aqueous substance that can accept protons (aka H+ ions). Bases are the chemical opposite to Acids which give a solution a pH greater than 7. An alkali (salt) is a base which, in a aqueous environment, donates hydroxide (OH^_) ions. Some examples are:

NaOH Sodium Hydroxide, "caustic soda"

KOH Potassium Hydroxide, "caustic potash" (either of these can be found in "lye")

CaCO₃ Calcium Carbonate, found in hard water, and used as an antacid.

NaCl Sodium Chloride, "table salt", (WARNING creates chlorine gas when used in electrolysis)

What happens when electrolyte is added to water solution?

The ionic compounds are held together by strong electrostatic forces, once they are added to water the ionic compounds are pulled apart and disassociated into the water solution. With the bond between ions weakened or gone, electricity now has a route through the water (and less resistance). Here are some chemical equations:

HCl + H2O <---------> H3O(+) + Cl(-)

NaCL + H2O <---------> Na(+) + Cl(-) + H2O

KOH + H2O <---------> K(+) + OH(-) + H2O

A lot more information here:
http://www.tutorvista.com/content/chemistry/chemistry-ii/electrolysis/electrolysisindex.php

Nice animation for the visualization people (like me)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gN9euz9jzwc&feature=related

Conductivity of Pure H2O

2008-10-08T11:43:00.000-07:00

What makes water conduct current?

Water by itself is NOT a very good conductor, and deionized pure H2O (ideally) is not conductive at all, but due to the self-ionizing properties of water it is actually slightly conductive.
Here are the ions that exist in pure water:

H3O+ = hydronium ion, the conductive property of pure water, cation with + charge
OH- = hydroxide, the non-conductive (dielectric) property of water, anion with - charge
H+ = A proton, only exists for 70 μs

Equal amounts of the above ions will form in pure water, though usually just in trace amounts (one pair for every 5.6e8 water molecules). The more impurities (and electrolyte) in the water, the more conductivity (and ions). Also, self-ionization is the process that determines the pH of water.

How do these ions form in pure water?

According to: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ionis.html

Water self-ionization occurs endothermically due to electric field fluctuations between molecules caused by nearby dipole liberations, resulting thermal effects, and favorable localized hydrogen bonding; a process that is facilitated by exciting the O-H stretch overtone vibration.

A little off topic speculation: "Exciting the OH- stretch overtone vibration" is an interesting concept and reminds me a lot of the Stan Meyer's saying: "tune into the dielectric property of water" aka resonance.

The above link also states:

Ions may separate by means of the "Grotthuss mechanism" but normally recombine within a few femtoseconds. Rarely (about once every eleven hours per molecule at 25°C, or less than once a week at 0°C) the localized hydrogen bonding arrangement breaks before allowing the separated ions to return, and the pair of ions (H+,OH-) hydrate independently and continue their separate existance for about 70 μs. They tend to recombine when only separated by one or two water molecules.

The equations look like this:
H₂O H⁺ + OH^-K_w = [H⁺][OH^-] (only lasts for 0.00007 seconds, then recombines)

Better written as:

2 H₂O H₃O⁺ + OH^-(concentration of 1.0×10⁻⁷mol/l at 25C)
K_w = [H₃O⁺][OH^-] = 1.0e-14 This is known as the self-ionization constant

Both ions create order and form stronger hydrogen bonds with surrounding water molecules.